Argue about Christianity and the Jews

[The best and greatest]

This is in reference to the Epicurean paradox no? I talked with a bible scholar who had a PHD and his counterargument was that Gods logic is different than ours and that you need blind faith. He provided an example of blind faith like trusting in the chair being able to hold you up and whatnot. It still seems like it's a bunch of shit since you can just make shit up and then say that you need blind faith. The problem is that you can clearly define where your blind faith extends (human logic, what you can interact with, etc) and where it doesn't extend (god, ghosts, etc).

'blind' faith doesn't really exist in the material world. I trust the chair will hold me up when I sit upon it based on past experiences with chairs, and my own observations of the chair in question (In human terms we call this credibility.) I also trust that the sun will set tonight and then rise tomorrow for similar reasons.

If we assume god is real (I'll give it to Christians for the sake of argument, its a big universe and we'll never know all of it) then as far as I'm concerned until such a time when he deigns to reveal himself to his earthly masses and guide as as a true and honest loving father, I will continue to refuse to acknowledge him as a spurned and abandoned child.

 

[gay porn is the best porn]

Im not saying trust don't question, I'm saying your questions are and have been answered for centuries at this point.

God is all knowing and all powerful, he could've made a world that has no sin but still has free will.

 

[gay porn is the best porn]

'blind' faith doesn't really exist in the material world. I trust the chair will hold me up when I sit upon it based on past experiences with chairs, and my own observations of the chair in question (In human terms we call this credibility.) I also trust that the sun will set tonight and then rise tomorrow for similar reasons.

Well it kinda does though, you have blind faith in human logic, which, when broken down to it's fundamental postulates, is just based off of what sounds right and cannot be proven. You can logically doubt everything besides the existence of your own mind if you believe in Rene Descartes thinking so you do have blind faith. Again, you just need to define where it extends. I see no reason for it to extend beyond human logic and the material world so I don't believe in a god.

 

[The best and greatest]

Google "Middle Knowledge" challenge

Tl;dr It might beggar belief, but we live in the best of All possible Worlds

So I came across this article:

https://warrenapologetics.org/articles-god/2017/2/27/a-study-of-gods-omniscience

And while I feel that I understand the idea being expressed that god can do anything within the logical bounds of material existence (He cant make a boulder he cant lift not because he can't do anything but because the very statement is an absurd non-entity) it doesn't really have much to do with what I'm getting at.

If god is a perfect being then everything he creates should likewise inherit his perfection. So why am I missing a rib? Why is the human mind so given to wrath, iniquity and predation? Why is the nonhuman world also full of pain and suffering? Is pain and misery part of perfection? Does god have such sights to show us?

 

[The best and greatest]

Well it kinda does though, you have blind faith in human logic, which, when broken down to it's fundamental postulates, is just based off of what sounds right and cannot be proven. You can logically doubt everything besides the existence of your own mind if you believe in Rene Descartes thinking so you do have blind faith. Again, you just need to define where it extends. I see no reason for it to extend beyond human logic and the material world so I don't believe in a god.

Disagree. I don't put faith in logic, its potential efficacy is self-evident in every decision you've ever made.

 

[Tanuki Mixed Nuts]

Yeah, I'm pretty tired of people acting like "bombshells" with no tangible consequences matter.

Ok but this time we got Obama and Hillary and they'll all be in prison the walls are closing in its over two more weeks

Christians really wrote themselves into a corner by insisting that god is all-knowing and all-powerful because now they have to reconcile how a morally perfect and all powerful being is content to watch us suffer and die for his own amusement.

I think that the focus on making God's motives and actions in any way knowable to man is the primary issue that lead to the omnipresent/omnipotent but strangely prideful and dismissive version of God I am not convinced by.

Freewill can't really exist with predestination, at least in any meaningful way. But damned you will be because God would require a choice he knows you would never make, because he knew the outcome far before you would have ever existed.

 

[Catch The Rainbow]

>Jeremiah
Why do Christians constantly insist on interpreting the old testament when it's not their fucking book?

Only retards (gnostics ) claim the old testament is not a Christian text

 

[JayseeDenton]

Christians really wrote themselves into a corner by insisting that god is all-knowing and all-powerful because now they have to reconcile how a morally perfect and all powerful being is content to watch us suffer and die for his own amusement.

This is a 2008 teenage youtube atheist argument that is easily debunkable with the slightest amount of life experience and wisdom, and is directly addressed many times in the bible.

It all comes down to teach a man to fish. You don't give your children everything they want just because they want it, sometimes they want bad things, sometimes you have to let them learn things are hot by getting burned, and they also need to understand that even when they do everything perfectly it sometimes doesn't work out.

A world that were perfect and had no conflict wouldn't be a world at all. Pleasure would have no meaning without pain and fear to contrast it, relief, hope, gratitude, euphoria, and happiness are all defined by their opposites. A perfect world where god did everything for you would be like starting a game and it immediately says "you win" or a movie that ends on the credits. You as a human love problem solving and conflict, it's in your dna and soul, it's why you come to this forum.

God has a larger purpose for us that we don't understand and can't conceive of, in the same way that a 6 year old can't conceive of why his parents won't let him eat candy for breakfast, skip school, or why they force him to confront his bully on his own. But you'll understand when you're older.

The only people who think the "all knowing vs all powerful vs all loving" paradox holds weight are people who approach religion like they're trying to win a high school debate club. God won't care and reality won't care if you win that debate, you'll still be here trying to figure out what to do next, and you'll feel something you can't explain with gotcha's. Love, power, and knowledge aren't linear and aren't simple, you probably had very ideas of what these things meant when you were 6 years old than when you were in your teens, vs 20s, 30s and so on.

 

[The best and greatest]

A perfect world where god did everything for you

Out of all that you said this sticks out to me, because to my mind a perfect world isn't one where 'god does everything for me' its one where there's nothing that needs doing because he got it all right the first time with no mistakes. The only conclusion you can draw from this is that our suffering is intentional. We are intended to suffer from hunger, disease, predation, natural disasters and the heart of human darkness itself, from our own ignorance and limited ability to understand. You say there is a purpose in mind. You may well be correct but so what? A tool has a purpose. A slave has a purpose. I prefer not to consider myself either of these things.

Also I resent being compared to reddit-athiesm. Im not smugly chuckling in your face or treating you like a rube with your backwards magical beliefs. I'm treating you respectfully and engaging directly with god's morality as though he is real rather than dismissing the entire idea out of hand because 'Lul skydaddy isnt real retard' so that at least puts me into the agnostic category

 

[JustSomeDong]

If these enlightened individuals had spent just 5% of the energy expended REEEing about being forced to go to Sunday School to instead actually understand what they were REEEing about, they wouldn't need to shit up the thread with their ignorant understanding of Faith in general, and Christianity in particular.

But they're pissed they couldn't sleep in and play pokemon, so we must all suffer. I don't even consider myself Christian or religious, but I feel that is no reason to be deadass ignorant about the subject. Must be the wannabe History teacher in me. Religion has had far too much influence on humanity to be so uninformed about it.

 

[gay porn is the best porn]

If these enlightened individuals had spent just 5% of the energy expended REEEing about being forced to go to Sunday School to instead actually understand what they were REEEing about, they wouldn't need to shit up the thread with their ignorant understanding of Faith in general, and Christianity in particular.

I have a clear cut understanding of Christianity, the interpretation Null has of it regarding the soul is just one I've never heard before or had forgotten about after a few years.

 

[JustSomeDong]

I have a clear cut understanding of Christianity

Your recent posts indicate otherwise, so I'm going to take this statement with the proverbial grain of salt.

 

[Catch The Rainbow]

God is all knowing and all powerful, therefore, when He made me, He knew that I wouldn't believe in Him and I would go to hell for that. Who is at fault? It's His because, being all knowing, He knew exactly what He was doing creating me which makes my life and where I will go predetermined by him. If He didn't bother to consider what I would do by making me in this way then He is still at fault for being negligent.
If you make a robot that stabs Jews and shouts "Hitler did nothing wrong" the person at fault is you for making it to do that.

You have free will, you're not a robot

 

[gay porn is the best porn]

Your recent posts indicate otherwise, so I'm going to take this statement with the proverbial grain of salt.

The only aspect of my posts that I will fall back on is the part null handled which was in relation to the soul being divine.
CTR look at the above.

You have free will, you're not a robot

What do you think of the Epicurean paradox.

 

[Haloperidol]

He provided an example of blind faith like trusting in the chair being able to hold you up and whatnot. It still seems like it's a bunch of shit since you can just make shit up and then say that you need blind faith. The problem is that you can clearly define where your blind faith extends (human logic, what you can interact with, etc) and where it doesn't extend (god, ghosts, etc).

I’m glad a new thread was made because I didn’t want to shit that one up. I used to be a very smug atheist until very recently. You can try and ride that perfectly logical and rational train to the end, if you like, but you may be surprised how nihilistic you become and how much your soul hurts after years of rationalizing the world into a cold and pointless place. But you’ll still see beauty sometimes, and that will nag at you. You might hit a point where you realize that in order to reconcile the pain and beauty and continue living you have to put logic aside and make the leap.

I don’t have any deep knowledge of theology, just what I feel.

 

[gay porn is the best porn]

but you may be surprised how nihilistic you become and how much your soul hurts after years of rationalizing the world into a cold and ugly place. But you’ll still see beauty sometimes, and that will nag at you.

I don't see the world as an ugly place, I'm content with how it is. I don't like nihilism.

 

[Haloperidol]

I don't see the world as an ugly place, I'm content with how it is. I don't like nihilism.

Idk, suffering without purpose and sinning without redemption sounds pretty ugly to me. Thought I could live with that belief right up until I couldn’t.

 

[Doğu Perinçek]

>erm god actually makes kids have blood cancer because he wants to test us despite being omniscient and knowing the outcome already
>free will exists, that's why god lets children die in hospital beds from diseases the kids have no control over
>he hecking loves everyone unconditionally, he loves child rapists and their victims equally
>life is suffering chud, god allows genocide to happen because two people ate a fruit once

 

[>IMPLYING]

What do you think of the Epicurean paradox.

Doesn't evil exist as a sort of filter for humanity? If evil didn't exist there'd be no way to determine who's truly worthy of salvation or not, since "evil" is, colloquially. a composite of temptations and actions that negatively affect the soul.

Another issue with the Epicurean paradox is that it pre-supposes an obligation from God to stop evil (never made) and puts in place the idea that God is incapable of self-limitation, which he demonstrated via his pact with humanity after flooding the earth. For example: God is omniscient (maybe? I find it contentious from what I've read) yet he got pissed off when they were crucifying Jesus, which shouldn't make any sense given he should already know it's going to happen anyway. Similarly he would've already known Abraham's commitment to him, yet he still asked for his son to be sacrificed. He similarly expressed anger in the old Testament to for numerous things I can't recall.

There's also the fact that God didn't create evil. It's in fact a product of the first humans making a choice that goes against God, and since evil is a product of humanity and God promised not to intervene in human affairs, stopping evil would be an intervention and thus a violation of his promise to man. This same promise might also apply to natural disasters and the like.

The Epicurean Paradox provides a limited selection of answers to why evil exists, but neglects the fact that we created evil.

TLDR: "Evil" broadly covers a lot of actions many might consider slight or not evil at all, but I digress. "Evil" is a product of "Free Will". God promised not to impede our "Free Will". Ergo God cannot stop "Evil" without violating his promise.

Edit: I'm not religious (just autistic) but it feels like the irreligious' arguments are based too much on conjecture.
Also, whilst the Devil/Satan/Lucifer tempted Eve, the choice was still ultimately made by her, making evil a result of her choice I.E. humanity.

 

[Not 6 Foot]

its one where there's nothing that needs doing because he got it all right the first time with no mistakes

And by what measure do you say that things aren't exactly how they're meant to be? Many things within this world operate in cycles which includes death to make way for new life.
Just because humans have found a way to live within that cycle while spurning it (SEE: overabundance of medications creating super diseases) doesn't suddenly mean the original plan wasn't exactly how it was meant to be.