Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Curzon Dax-sama]

- Massive gunships sent to "persuade" planets to have trade deals (in at least one episode of TNG you see the Enterprise use their massive weapons load to rejuvenate a planet's atmosphere)

In Wells' book, the Pope gets neutralised (quite literally non-lethally gassed), for instance; same counts for the Italian fascist government that somehow survived the endless wars. The world government (The Dictatorship of the Air) maintains a large military force to ensure compliance, until they are peacefully overthrown.

- Promise of infinite aid as long as you do what they want (see Eddington's "more insidious than the Borg" speech)

Happens there, too. The movie had an interesting scene about the critics of the government. Progress is happening too fast, the people should get at least a five minute smoke break, etc.

- Money went the way of the dinosaur definitely by the time of TNG, probably is still around in the pre TNG era (people use credits in TOS and DISThis kind of happened in Communist countries, is still true in DPRK, unless you have hard currency from abroad like gold pressed latinum that is)

Wells' world government is decidely post-scarcity.

- All health care and jobs are assigned by the government, or at least by the time of TNG

Same. They have mandatory service of two years, after that service is voluntary.

- Political officers on board starships sometimes (remember The Drumhead?)

Yeah, I need to read the novel again, but I don't think that was ever mentioned in there...

- Severe taboos against certain classes (Augments)

The aim of Wells' hyper-futuristic society is to create a classless society of polymaths, which they accomplish by eliminating poverty and the need for physical labour rather than bruteforcing the outcome as the Marxist would do. Since genetic engineering wasn't even on the horizon, well, I concede that.

In addition to all of this Roddenberry was also an esoteric Trotzkyist (Posadism)

"we need total nuclear war to usher in/become a member of the galactic federation", kek.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

@Curzon Dax-sama

Having never read the book I can say that I'm talking about actual historical examples of Communist societies. And it's not an accident that the worst war torn shitholes in the 20th century were the ones that adopted complete Communism; the "global North" or "Imperial Core" got devastated and they were the countries, specifically the USA, that got the most Vulcanian influence post First Contact. (Also apparently the UK is still around with a Royal Navy, at least during Enterprise)

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

@Curzon Dax-sama

Having never read the book I can say that I'm talking about actual historical examples of Communist societies. And it's not an accident that the worst war torn shitholes in the 20th century were the ones that adopted complete Communism; the "global North" or "Imperial Core" got devastated and they were the countries, specifically the USA, that got the most Vulcanian influence post First Contact. (Also apparently the UK is still around with a Royal Navy, at least during Enterprise)

The thing here is, no one knows what a fascist society would look like after 50 or 75 years[1], but we DO know what communist societies look like after that period of time, and they're all dysfunctional, hyper corrupt shitholes. And that leads to the conclusion of the contemporary, current year communists that the "real" communism has never been tried. Fascists at least get the excuse that their systems were deliberately destroyed in a war. The closest thing we have for reference is Mussolini's rule in Italy up until 1943, which is a massive, complicated mixed bag.

[1] The jury is still out on deciding if Francoist Spain was a fascist state in the way Mussolini defined it. I'd say "no, not necessarily", despite some of its trappings. One thing is for sure, tho: it didn't collapse into a massive shitshow.

What does that mean for Trek's Federation? It's a kitbash, honestly, but from my perspective it leans more into the fascist-side of things, in particular when the tropes of futurism and the creation of advanced, enlightened humans are concerned. These things are certainly true for Starfleet.

 

[TaimuRadiu]

but we DO know what communist societies look like after that period of time, and they're all dysfunctional, hyper corrupt shitholes.

so the federation? We get precious little information about the Federation's industrial base but it seems to be hyperreliant on centralization.. If you count DIS to be canon (I do to an extent; there's reasons why at the end of the 2nd season everyone is ordered on pain of death to never talk about the Discovery ever again) then you see in the future once the centralized industrial base is badly damaged the Federation cracks apart to the extent that Earth seceded, much like the dissolution of the USSR; I consider the Federation to have come together much more via shadowy Vulcanian manipulation than anything. It should be noted that afterwards Earthers revert to capitalism with resources no longer supporting the Human population of Earth, trading with the Orion Emerald Chain. (You can see much the same in other Human peoples not in the Federation, whether they be Maquis or New Sydneyers.)

Another edit, I would consider the situation in Turkana IV to be relevant, even tho all of the backstory for it was written while the USSR was still considered to be a stable country; I suppose the writers wanted it to be the equivalent of a totally lawless area without the Federation there.

it didn't collapse into a massive shitshow

that's because franco engineered there to be a "soft landing" so to speak after he died. I'm of the opinion that it was Fascist, and so were a lot of the countries the USA supported during the Cold War.

At any rate I have outlined why I feel the Federation is more of a Communist state than anything else.

So that I'm not a DOUBLE POSTING NIGGER I must ask why the DS9 toys look so much worse than the TNG toys, which I gladly had INCLUDING an Ent-D INCLUDING a Klingon and Romulan ship INCLUDING a shuttlecraft

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

So that I'm not a DOUBLE POSTING NIGGER I must ask why the DS9 toys look so much worse than the TNG toys, which I gladly had INCLUDING an Ent-D INCLUDING a Klingon and Romulan ship INCLUDING a shuttlecraft

Probably they were made by a different manufacturer. Can't really tell, because I hadn't any of the DS9 toys, not even one of the crappier Defiants and what have you.

 

[Captain Syrup]

These people never read Sorel, don't know Lenin thought highly of Mussolini, can't even comprehend that fascism never was overtly racist or any other little thing that makes the 1920s so fricking weird and awesome.

Technically Lenin did say some nice things about Mussolini in 1912, back when Mussolini was still just a wop yelling about socialism. By 1919, he’s out here saying, Socialism? Oh that? That’s just a bunch of guys with bad skin and axes to grind:

"Socialism as a doctrine was already dead; it continued to exist only as a grudge."

 

[teriyakiburns]

They have to be maniacal and "I-eat-babies-for-breakfast" nonsensically evil, because otherwise people will find them cool like how they find the Empire/Cardassians/Caesar's Legion cool and you're not allowed to find the BAD GUYS cool.

lol, lmao even. It's closer to what I'd term 'benevolent space fascism' than anything else. Don't let the current year leftards tell you otherwise.

I suppose I don't have to link The Feral Historian's various different videos on this whole thing. Fascism, communism, statist fantasies of all stripes are ultimately the same rule by an unassailable, technocratic elite. They just dress differently.

 

[Captain Syrup]

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I suppose I don't have to link The Feral Historian's various different videos on this whole thing. Fascism, communism, statist fantasies of all stripes are ultimately the same rule by an unassailable, technocratic elite. They just dress differently.

Feral Historian is doing the “both sides are equally cringe” thing but for the Star Wars rebellion. It’s like watching a guy do moral calculus with a concussion. I don’t need to 90 minutes of some dude telling me that Gerrera is just as bad as Krennic because they both have body counts. Why would I want to watch that muck?

 

[ZMOT]

At any rate I have outlined why I feel the Federation is more of a Communist state than anything else.

imo that whole discussion what and what not the federation is moot since it's a truly post-scarcity society, knowing there's other people out there. most people can't even grasp what that means, and even if they do lot of the them go "hurr mouse utopia experiment". how that society would be run and what the expectation of it's population would be can only be guessed.

for one we're not mice, the other being post-scarcity will have an almost incomprehensible effect on every layer of society it's hard to imagine. will some turn hardcore neet and go full ancient eldar on the holodeck? sure, but that's not the people you'd see in star trek. if you look at any UBI studies or well-off pensioners the killer is boredom and having no goal. those people keep working and busy because it gives them something to do, even if they wouldn't need to. now imagine you're able to do that in your best years with a life ahead of you. if you already got everything, what else you gonna strive towards?

and with aliens out there it still feeds into the "us vs them" tribal mentality, just on a different scale. but even if you're the most vocal human supremacist you can just fuck off to somewhere with a little reactor and replicator and start your own heaven's gate cult. niggers gonna nig but even the federation still had penal colonies...

 

[TaimuRadiu]

it's a truly post-scarcity society

I'd argue that rising standards of living tie into eventual socialism as well; see the Western European countries and Canada, which can be described as a soft form of socialism, even to the degree of being influenced heavily by Marxism-Leninism. But in a universe where replicators can put together replicators, what is a labor theory of value?

the killer is boredom and having no goal. those people keep working and busy because it gives them something to do, even if they wouldn't need to.

This is true and this is why old people do volunteer work. The point of Star Trek is that even the people who aren't "saints in paradise" have the same memetics. Yes, there are wannabe "primitive" worlds where they do nothing but farm in the old style and play baseball, but they're still focused on improving themselves and Humanity as a whole, and from Humanity the entire universe.

and with aliens out there it still feeds into the "us vs them" tribal mentality

Shown explicitly to be a heavily primitive way of thinking and actively harmful to the humans involved. Even the Maquis have Vulcanians and members of other species in their ranks.

even the federation still had penal colonies

Enough to apparently just fill a small one in New Zealand.

 

[Miller]

Okay, so the Gorn went from "we just want to be left alone, so you lot best don't fuck with us" to "WE WILL USE YOUR FLESH TO CREATE OFFSPRING AND WE WILL USE YOUR BIOMASS TO FUEL OUR TECH, we are also evil uwu". Thanks, nuTrek, for reaffirming every single stupid trope that was ever conceived about reptilians that maintain a sophisticated technological society. Great job, you fucking hackfrauds...

Stop watching Kurtzman Trek, it's not good for your mental health.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Stop watching Kurtzman Trek, it's not good for your mental health.

I alway need to confirm for myself how bad this shit truly is.

 

[Muppetstudios]

 

[Captain Syrup]

View attachment 7668982

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

 

[Flexo]

Dave Cullen brought this up in his recent video about SNW, if you only have 10 episodes in a season you don't have time for jokey episodes.

Do you mind narrowing down which of his videos this was?

 

[Mr. Racewar1488]

Do you mind narrowing down which of his videos this was?

 

[William Murderface]

for one we're not mice, the other being post-scarcity will have an almost incomprehensible effect on every layer of society it's hard to imagine. will some turn hardcore neet and go full ancient eldar on the holodeck? sure, but that's not the people you'd see in star trek. if you look at any UBI studies or well-off pensioners the killer is boredom and having no goal. those people keep working and busy because it gives them something to do, even if they wouldn't need to. now imagine you're able to do that in your best years with a life ahead of you. if you already got everything, what else you gonna strive towards?

To quote Data, "I aspire."

While I dislike TNG's idea that humanity made (while in TOS the conceit was humanity has a long way to go but damn it, we're trying everyday to be better than we were), the thinking is once we no longer need to slave away for a paycheck just to keep body and soul together, we will work to better ourselves on a personal level. For some it means learning to be an artist, for others it means to join Starfleet, for still others it means to read books all day every day. It just depends on the person.

 

[Captain Syrup]

To quote Data, "I aspire."

While I dislike TNG's idea that humanity made (while in TOS the conceit was humanity has a long way to go but damn it, we're trying everyday to be better than we were), the thinking is once we no longer need to slave away for a paycheck just to keep body and soul together, we will work to better ourselves on a personal level. For some it means learning to be an artist, for others it means to join Starfleet, for still others it means to read books all day every day. It just depends on the person.

Wanna know why post-war England punched above their weight culturally? It was because the British government, in a rare moment of not being horrible cunts, actually paid for people to go to art school. Then, after you graduated, you could move into a busted council flat in London or Manchester or whatever punk shithole city you liked, and make boundary breaking stuff.

It's the same in the Norway+Sweden metal scene. See Lords of Chaos.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

How are the Borg "perfection" if they look like zombies with machine parts grafted on?

also:

"6 Advanced Sci-fi Civilisations Too Stupid To Really Exist (Part 2)"

- Media Zealot

(Borg are the first ones covered in the first 10 minutes of vid BTW.)